In this post, GMW makes some comments accusing a patient of giving dangerous medical advice. I copy that thread here for further discussion, and out of the patients storyline.
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I'm not going to make any friends here right now, but I am going to say this entire thread is out of line, and here is why:

1) when we voluntarily choose surgery, we do so with knowledge of possible risk, including death, when we agree to a procedure. This is why 4 percent of patients have failed ADR procedures: it happens;

2) When I read Job13's very first post, I thought to myself, based on my own experience, that she is not a candidate, as she didn't present with pain;

3) The thread then continues with a pseudo patient advocate rendering medical opinion. Is this person a medical doctor at the very least, and a neurosurgeon at best? I considered myself to be a well informed patient, and did ample research, but never lost sight of the fact I am not a medical doctor, and I have certainly heard plenty, of what I consider to be, armchair medical opinion and advice from laymen, especially here;

4) How many medical opinions did Job13 obtain from qualified ADR surgeons before surgery?

5) The post on page 5 outlining the economics of ADR surgery, as a probable cause and motive for other physicians "protecting one another" was completely out of line and inappropriate. This is a personal opinion and conclusion, and one that borders on slander. Innuendo like this will cause doctors to not be responsive to this website and Harrison's activities;

6) The post on page 6 lists medical "conclusions" rendered by a layman. I would like to know who came to the conclusions stated in bullet points 2, 3, 4 and 7. As for bullet point 5, how do you know what was going on with this surgeon? As a sideline comment regarding surgeon contact, what doctor communicates with patients by email? I would think most doctors would view this practice as reckless. I do think it is noble of Matt to help her, but to draw the conclusions he did, as an "amateur surgeon", is not helpful, and frankly, quite dangerous. In addition, I have always felt that the frequent "advice" relative to pain medication (not this thread) is not appropriate;

7) The comment about "not appreciating the diminishing of stated events", all users of this website agreed to the terms of use when they signed up;

8) Harrison has developed many relationships with medical professionals in order to supply the content he does. We all know that Job13 is not happy with her surgeon, nor her surgery. We all feel very badly for her, including me. However, to render medical opinions, and draw medical conclusions which may or may not be accurate are not appropriate.

Finally, I want to reiterate how badly I feel for Job13. I've been through this, although not to the extent she has, but I am reaching my 2 year anniversary for my Charite implant, and I still have daily pain, and probably will for the rest of my life. However, my daily 8 level of pain has gone to 2 to 5, which I consider, based on the pre-operative expectations established by my surgeon, well prior to surgery, to be a success.

If anything, this thread also reiterates the importance of seeking multiple opinions before surgery, learning as much possible FROM QUALIFIED MEDICAL DOCTORS, as well as garnering OPINIONS from surgical patients and other lay sources, before subjecting one's self to life threatening surgery. No surgery has a 100 percent guarantee. Job13 knew this and said so in her first post. We should learn from her situation, as it reiterates the potential risk of any operation. We should also ask ourselves what we could do in the future to avoid what happened to her.

If this website turns into a witch hunt for certain doctors, guess what?, those medical professionals who supply information to Harrison for the benefit of others, will no longer do that, and this site becomes worthless to any prospective ADR patients. Harrison has the right to decide what is appropriate for HIS website. Everyone knew that when they signed on. Let's remember that.

(edited for typos)


Years of sports and poor treatment;<BR>DDD plus herniation L5-S1;<BR>Provocative discography, myleogram;<BR>IDET December, 2004 (failure);<BR>More tests; Charite ADR 11/15/05;<BR>Male, 46, 6'0", 150 lbs.

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GMW: Thank you for your inputs and concerns. Hopefully I can clarify - without blowing my top.

Speaking on 'slander', do you remember who accused me of "fronting for some slip and fall law firm, on a commission basis?" ... and then someone congratulating you and shutting down the thread? ... and the one of with someone stating "Unlike Matt, I do not get a paycheck for any of this work!" and then shutting down the thread. Looks like a trend.

Regarding your comments

"1) when we voluntarily choose surgery, we do so with knowledge of possible risk, including death, when we agree to a procedure. This is why 4 percent of patients have failed ADR procedures: it happens;"

Agreed. That is why people should hear of the bad outcomes too. Four Percent? You have proven your bias. Technically, YOU have just given medical opinion, telling people they have a 96% chance of success - without reference. Why 96%? Because some 4th class Euro reports say so? I'm sorry, I only believe 1st class data, like the FDA trials - which state 53%. Even Synthes' own financial report says 64%. I wont throw innuendo at you. Here's proof . YOU, IN FACT, HAVE GIVEN PEOPLE MISLEADING AND DANGEROUS GUIDANCE. Now your post will go on to slam a patient for giving medical advice, when she only told her story. Very impressive.

"2) When I read Job13's very first post, I thought to myself, based on my own experience, that she is not a candidate, as she didn't present with pain;"

Yes, she did not present with pain. She was off meds. She could walk several kilometers to see the Pope go by (only possible on foot). We several other forms of electronic proof. Dont ask me for it. This is for doctors only.

3. If your going to make accusations, be clear. Who gave what medical advice? Dont just 'spin' it. Dont think that discussing our situation is giving medical advice. Dont think that stating our opinion "I would not recommend ADR at X clinic" ... is giving medical advice.

4. Anastasia WAS a perfect candidate for ADR - in her original consultation (May 2005). Except, her conditions had changed drastically from the year before, Sep 2005 imagery. Naturally, because she had had a disectomy with abrasion at the Alphaklinik. In that span of time, one year, her disc had collapsed completely, and her facets gone bad. This is not my opinion. It is the statement of a very high level ADR surgeon.

5. Your quotation says that I said "protecting one another". That is a complete lie. That statement doesnt exist. People see that you are spinning things and trying to slime me. You are obviously TROLLING and attacking me specifically ... since you have never said anything on this thread before. According to site policy, you should be banned. I invite you to a private PM to discuss this further. If you disagree with any of the FACTS that I posted, please let me know. I will fix it if its not true.

6. Please tell us 'WHO' renders 'WHAT' medical conclusions by a layman? WHO ARE YOU TO CALL OUR DOCTORS LAYMEN! Guess what, we do not, by MEDICAL LAW, have to disclose our medical background, doctors, etc. We can, if we like, give our medical info - you take it as truth/lie or whatever. You are obviously attacking us, since you are not asking all the other people on this forum to cough up their doctors names, medical history etc.
Yet again, you have slandered me with "I do think it is noble of Matt to help her, but to draw the conclusions he did, as an "amateur surgeon", is not helpful, and frankly, quite dangerous." I never said anything on page 6. Please be more specific, in exactly what I said - before you slander me on these pages with such accusations. I will gladly forward your objections to our surgeons.

"In addition, I have always felt that the frequent "advice" relative to pain medication (not this thread) is not appropriate;" Again - if I made any 'advice' - please help me find it and delete it. If Anastasia states her reactions to stuff, well, that's her prerogative.

7. Thank you for your comments that relate to the actual recent turn of events on this thread - regarding the changing of peoples writings. Even though all users agreed to the 'terms', the 'terms' do not include unannounced editing of peoples words. It does state that threads or comments may be removed if inappropriate. I do not think her title was inappropriate - although not conforming to some obscure policy.

8. "However, to render medical opinions, and draw medical conclusions which may or may not be accurate are not appropriate."

Anastasia has never rendered medical opinions/conclusion of her own. You have yet again defamed her. Every bit of medical opinion we state comes straight from the mouth/email of a high level surgeon. For example, one VERY HIGH LEVEL surgeon from Munich stated "I would never put an ADR into such a degenerative level". No we arent going to tell you who said this. Its a private email. Clue: He works for a klinik which refuses to treat Americans - because Americans are so damned litigious. Funny, Anastasia is Russian. They still refused to treat her.

As you stated very well (really, I mean it), going from an 8 level of pain to a [2-5] is considered a success. In fact, if you look at the VAS/ODI charts, the typical patient goes from a 7.5 to a 4.5 ... which is considered a success. Funny thing is, those same charts show the Fusion Patients actually having LESS pain than the ADR patients at 6 months.

Your last two paragraphs are so leading it makes me sick.

Anastasia had multiple medical opinions FROM QUALIFIED MEDICAL DOCTORS months before her surgery ... and has many more medical opinions FROM QAULIFIED MEDICAL DOCTORS (thanks for the insinuation that she doesnt) stating that her PRE-OPERATIVE CONDITIONS CONTRAINDICATED ADR.

You insinuate that Anastasia is making a 'witch hunt' for certain doctors. I'm sorry, but you have not made the same comments against others who reported on their bad outcomes. You are obviously making a witch hunt against a patient who just had a disc ripped out her spine and barely survived - and had to tell her story. Good job.

Harrison, please delete GMW's comments on Anastasia's thread. I dont have time for a personal injury lawsuit.

Cheers,
Matt

Matt, I don't know what this legal stuff is all about; but if you are suggesting that your involvement with this forum has somehow brought liability to a peaceful community, I am very upset. How terrible, odd and tangled this mess really is.

Perhaps a good solution would be for you to leave voluntarily? A nice clean break-up, rather than all the ill-will that accompanies a "banning?"

If we can figure this out, I am glad to make this happen. During this chat, we can discuss whatever information concerns and edits you mention.

I am a very honest, open and ethical person. I believe you will feel this after we talk.

Let me know here, or by phone or email.

If you read GMW's post, he makes many wild, totally unfounded, accusations of that I am acting unlawfully.

He has seriously insulted us ... again. What's more disturbing, is the generality of it. I wouldnt be so upset if he had just quoted something I could understand ... and possibly fix.

I am very surprised that you are suggesting that I leave ... when in fact ... I have never gone to someone else's thread and accused or attacked them.

GMW stated:

"patient advocate rendering medical opinion" - False, there is no patient rendering medical opinion. Where?

"This is a personal opinion and conclusion, and one that borders on slander." - False, there was no opinion stated. Where? I posted facts. You draw your own conclusions. Its called FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

"medical "conclusions" rendered by a layman" - False. Those are Doctor's statements.

"to draw the conclusions he did, as an "amateur surgeon", is not helpful, and frankly, quite dangerous." - False again. I never even said anything there. This guy is truly attacking. Unbelievable. If ANYONE posts diagnostics, then according to GMW, they are pretending to be a surgeon.

"However, to render medical opinions, and draw medical conclusions which may or may not be accurate are not appropriate." - False. Again, just because he says so, DOES NOT MAKE OUR DOCTOR'S OPINIONS WRONG.

If ANYONE had said that to ANYONE besides me, I'm sure you would delete it. Prove me wrong.

I leave open the opportunity for you or GMW to delete (or seriously modify) the insults and slander on my wife in the prior thread.

Best Regards,
Matt

Going out on a limb here but why should Matt leave? As I see it he's defending himself which surely he is allowed to do considering what GMW posted? After that he has invited GMW to a private chat so as to keep anything further off the forum.

As for the editing of Anastasia's post, particularly the title, I agree that the "One Year Of Hell" should remain as it is relevant not only to Anastasia & her story but a heads up to anyone coming in to research ADR. Maybe I should also add "One Year of Hell & Ongoing" to the title of my story when I give my one year update later on in the week?

Harrison, everyone here is grateful for this forum & the work you have put in but without the patients & their honest stories there is no forum. Anastasia never mentioned her surgeon even if most of us do know who carried out her botched surgery & even if she had, if there were any legal ramifications then they would fall to her not you.

I think it's extremely sad that some have felt the need to hijack Anastasia's post & attack Matt in the process. Harrison if you must do any editing then maybe there is your chance?

Please, let this forum return to the friendly, free speech forum I thought it was supposed to be.

We all want "friendly and free," but I don't want to lose my house, legal expenses and forfeit time I should be spending with patients -- let alone my family. By far, these topics have required the most time of ANY topics in the history of the forum.

As an editor, patient, patient advocate, community member, liaison, teacher (you get the point), I love the idea of ALL sides of any story being told. But I'll be damned if ANY patient brings legal challenges on this community -- and threatens my way of life -- and the good I thought I was trying to instill.

Lynday, out of all people, you see the work I've done behind the curtains...which I never brag about! Should I deal with this nonsense -- or help 2 or 3 other people? Please answer my question -- it is that simple.

Clarification: I have no time to DEFEND myself in a lawsuit - which GMW was implying with all that legal mumbo jumbo. Sorry if that sounded like I meant against you (Harrison).

Hey, were both techies. GMW probably rolls in the dough with his finance job. Besides - I've been wiped out to get my wife out of Germany for help that we could trust. At least I can claim that much at the pearly gates.

Harrison, excuse my ignorance (maybe?) but other than the time you're spending on the forum, why on earth should you lose your house etc? Sorry but that makes no sense?!?

Anastasia's post maybe long but then there are a lot of people on here that care deeply about her & all that she has gone through. The only exceptions are of the recent, completely uncalled for, troll posts (sorry but no other word for it really). My story is several pages long & that is without any updates in months (it will be updated though this week) but then Anastasia's story & mine share many similarities, though many of mine have deliberately been kept off the forum (for now).

People coming to this forum, or any forum, need to see the bad as well as the good & censoring is going to make that difficult for them without reading through every post.

Back to this thread, why should Matt have to leave? He's done nothing other than defend himself!

Lyndsay, I know it's not that easy to answer! But I made my point.

Matt, thx for adressing my concern about liabilities.

Please, no more posts on this subject. I am not closing this, but asking your respect.

I originally posted this on Ana's thread, but am moving it here (sorry, no one wants this to drag on, but 'respect'and 'peace' won't hold if the problem isn't resolved, and saying 'no more on this subject' is not a resolution!):

'Helping people' sometimes involves dealing with this stuff. It stinks, but it's far from 'nonsense'. People have trusted this space, and Harrison, and their peers, to be able to express themselves freely as long as they respect others. That trust is taking a serious hit with this, and brushing it under the mat (Matt? http://adrsupport.org/groupee_common...on_biggrin.gif...sorry, too punny to resist)ain't gonna help.

How about working together to resolve this situation in a way where everyone's feelings are at least respected? It's Harrison's Board, ok, but there are patients who do not feel supported in the way it's been organized lately, and I'm sorry to have to say that I can understand this given these latest exchanges.

Harrison, I believe you do care about people's feelings. What about that idea of letting people flag their own stories with mood icons? It's a compromise at least. That way everything, good or bad, is no longer under a blanket coat of 'generic calm'. If we're going to leave negative headings elsewhere, like the Stenum posts and even Insurance Hell, then there is no logical way to justify wiping over negative surgical experiences so they melt into the background, don't you think? http://adrsupport.org/groupee_common...n_rolleyes.gif

Also: I'd like to remind everyone that a lot of work and support have been generated here BY and FOR MANY people over the years and NO ONE gets paid. It would be a shame to lose good people over this but it's about to happen. A Forum is people. Without posters to contribute, it's empty space.

It's really necessary to quickly work this out in a way where the majority feels satisfied, and move on. Spineys, Rich, are you inclined to agree or disagree? Thanks for your time; I have a 4-hour exam on Monday and not much to spare here but I hope ALL realize the importance of protecting what has been built with so much care and honest feeling.

Trace

I’m glad this new thread has been started, as I wanted to respond to a few comments, but did not want to continue on Anastasia’s thread.

First A BIG APOLOGY to Harrison for accusing him of removing earlier postings of his about Anastasia’s identity – I was wrong. These were on another thread and, as he points out, are still there. (I got confused)

I am very sorry, too, that all the positives I wrote about this forum seem to have been disregarded. I put them in to demonstrate that the criticisms I wrote needed to be seen in that context – they were written precisely because I value this forum so much (I really haven’t got either the energy or inclination to get into silly games or trolling).

The other point I want to make is that I neither said, nor implied that I was talking for the whole community. I specifically referred to what I saw was clearly inferred by the previous posters and felt by myself.

Any large group of people – on-line or off-line – can only gain in strength by allowing dissent and engaging in open dialogue with it. Personal attacks are not the same thing – hence my wish to clarify my posting and apologise for the one error in it.

My 2 cents about the rumoured legal issues:

1. It's libel, not slander. Libel is written, slander is spoken.

2. Among other things, in order for it to be libel, it must be a false statement. I don't see any reason to believe these are false statements, merely uncomfortable ones.

3. If anyone wished to sue Harrison or adrsupport.org they would have a hard time proving causation, i.e. that Harrison's actions or inaction was resonably linked to the libel. It is not the same as a newspaper where the editor is responsible and decides upon every word of its content.

4. Generally people only sue if their is money to be had.....and it sounds like all the parties are poor as church mice.

5. Harrison, ss non-profit org, in the US anyway, no judgements against it can touch your personal finances (house, car, etc....) so long as the paperwork is in order. I believe it is very similar in the UK, even though our legal systems have been seperated for a few hundred years.

I see no real danger here.

Sincerely,
Trish
(a licensed American attorney)


As for the rest....I am getting lazy in here....my life is calling to me to get away from this computer....so I will just say I concur wholeheartedly with Lindsay.

I think one has to ask oneself who the forum is for:

"is it for patients or is it for surgeons?"

If the answer is: "for the patients", then the patients must be allowed to tell their story and allowed to own their patient history without interference.

That said; I have been a moderator at a chronic pain board a couple of years, and know that running a board is not easy.
I decided to quit as a moderator; essentially because the board didn't play by democratic principles. Boardowners are not forced to do so, but it will benfit the board in the long run if democratic principls are followed there, as in "real life".
Internet is quickly becoming "real life" for more and more people, and ethical issues will come up as internet becomes an everyday medium just like TV or newspapers.

Yes there are rules on a forum; but rules are subject to interpretation, and don't neccessarily guarantee justice.

Ethical standards will always go further and above law and rules.

We can have lawful rights to do things, but it isn't always ethical uf us to do so.

This forum is a great ressource, and I tell the norwegian spineys looking for ADR information to go here, I link to this forum; it is the best place on the internet in my opinion.
Because it reflects the reality, both the good and the bad outcomes. And open discussion! that's so important to keep a forum live, and that's how we learn more about a subject,... by discussing it.

I think you have made a mistake Harrison; with Anastasia and Matt, and that you should make it right.
You do a lot of good work with this board, and I like the others am very grateful for it. That we critizize you for these latest happenings on the board, doesn't mean that we are not grateful for what you have done and are doing for spine patients.

But I agree with Lyndsay and Tmont and several others here, if this is going to be a community in the right sense of the word, it can't be brushed under the carpet.

There are so many people here that contribute with their experience and intelligence, and I would hate to see them take resentment to the board and stop contributing.

There are bound to be conflicts from time to time on boards like this; people in a vulnerable life situation; living in great pain.
There is also something called timing; and the timing couldn't be worse as I see it. I remember when I was newly operated; you don't need extra stress like all this.

Anyhow, I think Anastasia must be allowed to own her own story, that's what it boils down to.

Hope it will all be sorted out, and that the board will continue to be the great ressource for ADR-information as it has been. http://adrsupport.org/groupee_common...icon_smile.gif

It's interesting you say this, knowing the "mistake" I made was editing the Subject Headers of multiple topics in the post-op forum. None of the other patients complained -- as this policy is clearly stated in the first topic in the Post-Op forum.

I wish I could share the emails and private messages from others here, but I don't care to make this an even more explosive issue. For those of you that have emailed, I appreciate your advice in handling these extraordinary issues.

I will however, seriously comtemplate closing down this board either temporarily or permanently. I am disgusted with the misinformation and lack of respect I've seen in the last few days.

If it's too much to handle and you're not prepared to address posters' valid concerns, Rich, then I would fully support such a decision on your part. Without a Moderator willing to at least listen to criticism and discuss the solutions without going into a surly huff,then a big part of what made this Board worthwhile is already gone. It will only be a matter of time before it will be exactly what 'interested and biased persons' want it to be. Close it down; the sooner the better, before it starts to mislead patients, which would be the next step.

To be fair: your position between a rock and a hard place is not an easy one; I do empathize. But you should understand that people are speaking up because this is THEIR PLACE and they care about it, thanks to you--but also to us all. I ultimately will side with patients--and I do hope you will ultimately chose patient rights and freedoms, even if there is a price to pay which no one else but you assumes. As it is, this policy concerning post titles is neither logical nor universally applied; all you have to do is dig and (as of this morning anyway), there are several testimonials which do not fully comply with your rule.

You thank those who email with suggestions behind the scenes, but have not addressed my open one concerning the categorization of posts, and I've offered it twice. Will you or will you not consider it? Or any other coming from people who care, but who disagree? Are we all then bannable? Is any sort of dialogue possible here, or will you continue to apply the 'iron fist principle'? http://adrsupport.org/groupee_common...icon_frown.gif http://adrsupport.org/groupee_common...n_confused.gif

Trace

I have not been heavily involved with these issues, but I agree with what Trace, Lyndsay, Kanutta, and a few others have said (I can't see all the names right now). I support having Anastasia's post title changed to something like "One Year in Hell After ___ (insert level and name of ADR device."

If this forum is not going to be a voice for patients and their stories, both positive and negative, and if it can be censored for trivial reasons, it serves no purpose.

I hoped to find help and support in researching my options, and to share my experience as a cervical MISS success story until I suffered a new injury.

Instead I find that patients who had disastrous results from ADR are attacked and victimized even more. I have never been to either Alphaklinik or Stenum, but find it very strange that several negative stories about Stenum are encouraged, but the same criticism of Alphaklinik is treated very, very differently.

I have been on spine forums since 1996 or 1997, starting with MGH Spinal Disorders. Although this is the most comprehensive ADR forum, there are other spinal forums which are run more objectively.

And finally, to have my previous very calm, constructive criticism to be labelled a selfish rant and to be reprimanded in public is a little too much. How can speaking up for a victim make one selfish???

And since I am undoubtedly going to be banned or made to feel unwelcome by being scolded, here is my e-mail address for anyone who wants to remain in contact: AguilarKL@aol.com

Well, it is good that this topic has become a vehicle for some to voice their concerns -- I am all for healing and some kind of catharsis here.

Trace, your suggestions are practical -- but I don't think emoticons are supported in the topic titles by Groupee. Great suggestion, and one of many that have been acted upon. Should I tug at your heartstrings and explain all the things I had to do this weekend -- that have nothing to do with this discussion?! Of course not! Bottom line: less sleep and time with the family.

And should you be asking for lurkers to post, that will only add to this controversy. But they may...and only make this discussion eternal. Or infernal.

Folks, this is not FOX or CNN. I/we don't have time for this. More specifically, I posed a question earlier which went unanswered: what is the amount of time I should spend on this issue or 2-3 new patients. It went unanswered, because it is a tough, seemingly rhetorical issue. The other reason is that very few people know the amount of time I spend researching answers for new & recent members.

Not complaining here... just explaining. I am learning and changing my views as I go through this process -- but it may not be for the better.

Who should make the rules in the community: the majority or the minority? I already addressed this three years ago. See the terms of service link below.

As not to appear the inflexible curmudegeon, I am happy to defer my moderation responsibilities to someone else how can offer the same degree of dedication, time and intelligence that I have in the past three years (I am very serious) as the moderator. Email me if you are interested; while I still ponder the fate of this board.

http://adrsupport.org/groupee_common...n_confused.gif

I am fairly new to this board as you all know. Perhaps I can be a sort of neutral intermediary.

I'd like to propose a compromise between the opposing parties regarding the issues of thread titles, censorship of content and personal attacks.

I say Harrison should do what he feels is best to organize thread titles including changing the title name. This is Harrison's site and he has done an excellent job keeping it organized. Who cares what the title is as long as we can find what we are looking for and can share information.

Harrison should delete any posts that he feels are anger filled or vulgar or personal attacks against other posters. No one here should protest Harrison's decision to delete for these reasons. If they do protest, Harrison should delete their protests without notice or explanation. I think we all would rather not be exposed to anger and such even though chronic pain and meds can cause some of us to be angry. I think that angry posters will get the message after their posts are deleted and kindness will follow.

Harrison should not engage posters who protest; deleting their abusive posts should be adequate remedy. Harrison, I think your engagement of complaining posters just extends the arguing ad nauseum. Silence is golden. You don't need to give anyone a reason for your decision. This will reduce your stress level and provide more time for you to help patients.

Harrison should not censor anyone's posts or question the poster's reason for posting. Harrison should provide adequate disclaimers to safeguard against liability problems. Censoring the thoughts of posters is counter-productive to the reason we are all here. We need to hear the real-life stories and the results of poster's research, good or bad, to make decisions for ourselves that are life-affecting decisions. Censoring would make us seek info elsewhere.

Harrison should not ask anyone to leave adrsupport.org. Deleting offensive posts without notice or explanation should be an adequate remedy to deter abusers. Everyones' opinions are important no matter who they are. 'Culling' posters is the same as censorship and would make us leave the site and go elsewhere.

Well, what do you all think? Does this sound like a compromising compromise?

joey

Rich,

Thank you for your more 'open' response. I think we all understand--and accept-- that this is a tiring learning process for you as well and it's good to finally see some goodwill all around here. No need to tug on the heartstrings, I can relate: I spent 10 hours on the road Friday and am now cramming for my first nursing exam tomorrow. Bottom line: little sleep and NO family time. Hopefully will see them once before Christmas. http://adrsupport.org/groupee_common...icon_frown.gif

Firstly, to respond to your comment above: let me make it clear that I was not calling for reinforcement from 'lurkers' and there is no behind the scenes conspiracy (involving me in any case). I've always put my opinion out there openly. And anyway,the lurkers don't come out until one guy is on the ground and already half-dead so as to be sure to be upwind from the stench of decomposition. It's a bit early for that. http://adrsupport.org/groupee_common.../icon_razz.gif http://adrsupport.org/groupee_common.../icon_wink.gif

I agree with Joey's suggestion there, that Rich be able to--and should-- stop truly 'trolling' or hurtful posters who seem to only come out when they smell blood, in order to get a dig in themselves. Especially when they're quasi-invisible in other discussions http://adrsupport.org/groupee_common...s/icon_mad.gif However: we all have been, and are, guilty of knee-jerk reactions at times. Deciding when to bring the boom down and when to let it ride isn't easy. But it's something to be watched more closely. Next:

Rich, on the censuring of titles (in the absence of emoticons or some other system allowing people to use a 'mood flag'), I can't agree with this and I'm asking you to please reconsider. It really shouldn't take up much time, but if it does--well, the community's concerns count along with the 'new folks'. It's important to patients, thus to this community and it's obviously an issue that will close or widen the gap here. I know you can empathize with how patients are feeling--proof in related link--even if their expression is not always cool-headed. Pain makes us a bit touchy at times http://adrsupport.org/groupee_common.../icon_wink.gif

http://adrsupport.org/eve/forums/a/t...1/m/1791047682

Ok, another suggestion: if Groupee doesn't support icons--are you sure, because we can use exclamation points, etc-- then how about a number or letter system before each post? Roughly Ex: 1--thrilled, 2--pretty happy, 3--mixed, 4--not great, 5--very disappointed OR:

-- divide your Surgical Outcomes file into TWO files: happies and unhappies, and let people post where they want. Newbies immediately see two categories and don't have to walk through a maze of identical doors and open each one to see what's behind it.

For the record: I still think the best thing for patients and surfers here is to let the patients use the titles they want. But if this is truly a no go, then let's find something that will work for everyone (and as you know, in this case it means no one is 100% happy so the operative word here is COMPROMISE,folks).

I gotta go study. Will have a hard time explaining that I bombed Ortho-Traumato-Rhumato because I was fooling around on the Internet http://adrsupport.org/groupee_common.../icon_wink.gif

Trace

Joey, I like your ideas, but I have a question. I maintain a policy in which I delete topics on very rare occasions. On one hand, you offer me complete latitude to edit/delete topics when they are inappropriate (see the Terms of Service, which you read again today), but then later, call this censoring.

People absolutely freak out when they think a post has been deleted -- even when it hasn't (see recent topic). As an editor in an active community, it's a never-ending challenge.

So far, only two people have been "censored" or banned: both are non-patients...both are brokers/sales agents in the spine industry. Perhaps it makes sense to consider membership in this community as a privilige exclusive to patients. I'll give this some thought.

People freak out just as much when their words are modified without just cause. It may specify in the 'Terms of Service' that the content of this website is the 'intellectual property of the owner' (I'll have to look into that by the way) however I also disagree with that. My words and thoughts first belong to me and I share them AS IS, as does every other poster who respects the rules of basic RESPECT. If that's not going to be entirely respected by Board Owners, Moderators, or Advisors, then it is pointless to post here. http://adrsupport.org/groupee_common...s/icon_mad.gif

I'm out for this evening.

Trace

Hello!? No one is talking about editing your words. This has NEVER been done and never will. The only exception is the format of the titles for topics in the post-op forum, which we've discussed ad nauseum.

OK, nuff said on this topic. It's time to focus on the patients who have been neglected (see other forums).

This topic is now closed.